Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/29/1997 03:14 PM House RLS
Audio | Topic |
---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RULES STANDING COMMITTEE January 29, 1997 3:14 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Pete Kott, Chairman Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Al Vezey Representative Gail Phillips Representative Brian Porter Representative Bill Williams Representative Kim Elton MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR Continuation of January 27, 1997, meeting: Select Committee on Legislative Ethics Decision H-96-02 PREVIOUS ACTION WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 414 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4945 TAMARA COOK, Director Legislative Legal and Research Services Legislative Affairs Agency 130 Seward Street, Suite 409 Juneau, Alaska 99801-2105 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-2, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN PETE KOTT called the House Rules Standing Committee to order at 3:14 p.m. All members were present. CHAIRMAN PETE KOTT: Before commencing, I want to thank everyone for attending the first House Rules Committee meeting. It may be the last, but we'll see how that works. The committee has been charged with the responsibility of examining the decision and recommendations made by the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics in the case H-96-02, otherwise known In Re Sanders. Thereafter, depending upon the results of this hearing, the committee will make full recommendations to the House. By way of background, on April 29, 1996, a complaint was filed with the Ethics Committee concerning Representative Sanders. The committee, on September 23, found probable cause to conclude that Representative Sanders, as a result of a mailing, violated Alaska Statute 24.60.030(a)(2), Alaska Statue 24.60.030(a)(5) and Alaska Statute 24.60.030(b). Representative Sanders was served with a copy of the charges. He also was served with a summons requiring him to answer the charges within ten days. Representative Sanders elect not to file an answer. A hearing master was chosen on November 14 and November 15 a hearing was held before the House Subcommittee on Legislative Ethics. Representative Sanders, while represented by counsel, elected to assert his rights under the Fifth Amendment to the United State Constitution. On November 15, a written report was issued by the House Subcommittee finding that Representative Sanders violated the mentioned three provisions of the Ethics Act. The written opinion also made several recommendations concerning sanctions. This report was duly forwarded to the House where it was considered on the House floor January 22, 1997. The full House elected, without objection, to forward the matter to the House Rules Committee. Consequently, the Ethics Committee findings and recommendations are now before this committee for consideration. At the conclusion of these proceedings, again, the Rules Committee will submit a written report to the full House. It is my goal to conclude all the hearings by Monday of next week and to submit that report required by this committee subsequent to that date - more than likely toward the middle or end of next week. Today, it's my plan to illicit testimony from Representative Sanders concerning what happened in the case. Representative Sanders elected not to testify before the House Ethics Committee, as I mentioned. I plan on giving him that opportunity at this particular time. I've also requested that personnel from the Ethics Committee be present and testify and that more than likely will occur tomorrow evening. In addition to testimony, the Rules Committee has before it a copy of the Ethics Committee's decision, the transcript of the proceedings before the Ethics Committee and a copy of the exhibits admitted at the Ethics Committee hearing, as well as copies of orders issued by the hearing master. Although this Rules Committee hearing is open to the public for testimony it is my intent to have that testimony by invitation only. The core issue before the committee is, "Was the Ethics Committee correct in its conclusions and are the recommended sanctions appropriate?" Generalized policy questions are not before the committee, except they might related to the resolution of a specific case, and accordingly generalize public input would be less than useful in this particular case. That, coupled with my desire to expeditiously resolve this long-running issue, influenced my decision to limit testimony by invitation only. With that in mind, I would now like to invite Representative Sanders up to the stand to give his version of what occurred. Jerry, please join us at the table. Representative Elton. Number 381 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON: I mean I was prepared to make a motion, but we may not need to do that. I just have a question for the Chair and then you can perhaps make up your mind. Because of the testimony before the Ethics Committee was given under oath, was there any consideration on any witnesses that you call before here having our testimony given on (indisc.--coughing) also? Number 409 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Yes, there is that consideration. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Has a decision been made? CHAIRMAN KOTT: And the decision has been made and we will proceed under that assumption that Representative Sanders will be under oath. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chairman. Number 433 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Jerry, if you would please raise your right hand and do you swear to affirm that you will tell the whole truth, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Number 435 REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS: I do. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you. Please proceed. Number 463 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman and committee members. I know we have a reception at 6:00 p.m. so I'll try to get through this stack of papers by 6:00 for you. First, let me think you and the committee and the entire House for allowing me to present my position and allow -- please allow me to apologize for the time you have been forced to take out of your busy schedules to address this decision of the Ethics Committee. Already, the committee has spent over $24,000 investigating an alleged misuse of $72. It seems a little out of proportion, still, there is an important issue of law that I hope you will address and I ask for your indulgence to consider this decision in two parts. First, I will focus on the actual merits of the case, and explain how the committee unfortunately misinterpreted the statute it was trying to apply. Second, I will address the dubious procedures which the committee used, through no fault of its own, but rather through the fault of this statute. This discussion will also include some additional facts which will enable you to assess who cooperated and to what extent in the process. You may be surprised. On the first point, Mr. Chairman, I ask that you discard the chaff and take a close look at the kernel of the situation. The issue is not my attitude towards certain members of the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics. The issue is not disagreements I have had with the committee in the past. The issue is very straightforward, Mr. Chairman: Did I violate the Legislative Ethics Act when I authorized a particular letter to be sent to some of my constituents? I have attached a copy of my letter to your paperwork and I have more copies here is anyone would like to see them. And with your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this letter into the record. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Please proceed. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: March 4, 1996 Dear (first name), I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your participation in the first presidential straw poll to be held in Alaska. Not only have we broken new ground historically, politically we have gained prestige on the national level. It was exciting to learn that District 19's participation was among the strongest areas to go out and cast a vote for on a presidential candidate. With the inclement whether to deal with, I really appreciate the interest shown by my fellow Republicans. Seeing a lot of you in the halls of the polling station within my district was indeed a pleasure. If I didn't get a chance to talk with you, please accept my apology. I have always held in high regard those people who will go that `extra mile' to do what is needed. Taking the time out of your busy schedule to fulfill your civic duty is greatly appreciated. With warm regard, I remain Representative Jerry Sanders Number 667 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Excuse me, do members of the committee have that? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: If you don't have it... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Letter? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: We have it here to pass out. Can we pass it out? CHAIRMAN KOTT: It appears everyone has it. Number 682 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: This, Mr. Chairman, is the $24,000 letter. This is the letter that's branded me a criminal and held me up to ridicule and shame for the past four months. The letter went to about 240 people and cost about $72. I was not running for office, I had not declared a candidacy. I had not even decided if I were going to run again, or for what office if I did. The letter doesn't urge anyone to contribute money, it doesn't urge anyone to go vote, it doesn't urge anyone to vote for me, it doesn't urge anyone to vote for any local, state or national candidate. My letter simply thanks a few hundred people in my district who took the time to do their civic duty and participate in the presidential election process. People whom - within whom I took a great deal of pride. I was not concerned for whom thy voted, but the fact they had participated. I also felt that positive recognition and acknowledgment from their legislator would perhaps encourage them to further civic and community involvement. Mr. Chairman, this is my crime - this letter. The Ethics Committee concluded that this short letter violated AS 24.60.30. The problem is that the committee narrowed its application to exclude the letter that I wrote and that we, as legislators write, every day. The statute states that we may not use public funds, facilities, and so forth for a nongovernmental purpose or for the private benefit of a legislator. The statute also has a nominal value exception, which I will talk about in a moment. The key words here are "nongovernmental purpose." That's what the statute says. If your letter has a governmental purpose, it's okay. If it has a nongovernmental purpose, it's not okay. Instead of using the broad term "governmental purpose," the committee instead substituted a much narrower definition, namely, "legislative purpose." In other words, the committee believed that if the letter had a legislative purpose which term is not found anywhere in the statute, it's okay. If it has no legislative purpose, it's not okay. Let me read from their decision in quotes: "This letter does not have a legislative purpose. It concerns a function of a political party on a national level, the effort to influence the choice of the Republican nominee for president. It was sent to active members of Representative Sander's political party, in his district, in a year he was running for election." That's Decision II 96-02, page 4. I take two exceptions there. At the time this letter was sent, I was not running for office. It's true in that year I ran for office, but not when I sent this letter. I was -- the election for president was over, the votes were tallied and the decision had been announced. How could I have been trying to influence this election? The Select Committee went onto conclude that legislators may use public funds, facilities and staff to communicate with constituents if that communication has a connection to a legislative purpose. The letter has a political, not legislative purpose. That's what the committee found. I respectfully suggest to the House Rules Committee that the conclusion of the Ethics Committee is simply an error. For example, AS 24.60.030 says absolutely nothing about "political purposes" nor does the statute refer to "legislative purpose." Those are not the standards established by the law. At this time I would like to show you another exhibit if we could pass it out, Exhibit B, from the Legislative Ethics Manual. Number 973 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Would you please give it to Mr. Dozier. Let the record reflect that Exhibit B is taken from the Standards of Conduct Handbook prepared by the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics and deals with Alaska Statute 24.60.030 (c). Number 996 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Number 996 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Okay, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I ask you if you were going to send out a mass mailing and you had any question of whether or not it was ethical, where would you go to find out? Would you not go to the Ethics Manual to page 13 where it says "Mass Mailings?" And would you not read that statute, and I don't have a copy of it to read it to you - to read it into the record if I could. Thank you very much Representative Elton. It says: "State money may not be used to print or distribute a mass mailing from or about a legislator who is a candidate for state office, during the period beginning 90 days before the primary and ending the day after the general or special election." I was not a candidate, this was more than six months before the primary. I didn't see any problem. "However, a legislator's personal office allowance may be used for this mass mailings at any time." There is nothing there that made me think I couldn't use my office account for this mass mailing. Why the Select Committee chooses to contrast the narrow the concept of "legislative purpose" with "political purpose" is a mystery to me. AS 24.60.030(a)(2) refers only to the broader term of "nongovernmental purpose," not some sort of tension between "legislative" and "political" purposes. The Select Committee failed to properly apply the clear language of the statute. The issue is whether my March 4, 1996, letter served a governmental purpose or not, and whether the letter was for the private benefit of a legislator. Those are the standards the law requires. So the statute allowed for a much broader range of letters that could be written under the "governmental purpose" exception. The committee, however, used a much narrower term of "legislative purpose," which term never appears in the statute, and which would make an ethics violation out of just about every letter that any of us have ever written to a constituent. Mr. Chairman, if you are confident that every letter you have ever written as a legislator could withstand this sort of scrutiny, then you have no option, you must impose the sanctions before you. If you're confident that we could go back to each of our offices and pull out a letter at random, and it would pass this new test that the Ethics Committee has imposed, then there's not much more to discuss. The statute also forbids letters for the "private benefit" of a legislator. I think it's clear that the term "private benefit" refers to financial benefit as in fund raising and not so-called "campaign goodwill" the Select Committee seems to have adopted as their definition. If my letter is the new standard for how we communicate with our constituents, then we have a whole new set of problems. Let me list a few of em for ya. How many legislators send congratulatory letters to seniors graduating from high school? Do they fit under this? How many legislators routinely use the convenient labels produced by the University of Alaska to congratulate graduating Alaskans? Can we do this? How many legislators would send a letter thanking students for volunteering their time during high school civics class activities? How many times, Mr. Chairman, has the body taken up resolutions in memorium or praising the work or civic dedication in our community? Is that a legislative purpose? How many times have we addressed the president of the United States and Congress on issues of concern to Alaskans? How many of us will attend the joint session where our U.S. senators will address the legislature? How many Democratic candidates now serving in the legislature flew back to Washington, D.C., at state expense, to attend the inaugural of President Bill Clinton? Was there a governmental purpose in flying back to a Democratic Party celebration on the reelection of a Democrat president and his inaugural? These are questions that I hope you'll think about. In the future, can any legislator thank volunteers for cleaning up Campbell Creek or for forming a neighborhood watch? If the answer to this question is, "yes, they can," then I have another question. What if the organizers of the effort were the Young Republicans? Can you now? What if they were the Bartlett Democratic Club? Can you now? On the first point, governmental purpose, I suggest to the Rules Committee that sending a letter to 240 people thanking them for participating in a presidential election process clearly has several governmental purposes. Not the least of which is encouraging people in their civic duty to participate and to enhance Alaskan issues in the minds of candidates for president of the United States. In reaching this conclusion I ask the Rules Committee to consider only this letter and the statute in reaching a conclusion that the committee simply did not correctly apply the law with respect to this letter. There was no violation of AS 24.60.030. So in terms of the actual merits of the charges against me, and really against any one of us who has a letter like this in their office, the kind of letter we send out every day to our constituents, on the merits of the case, I (indisc.) is clear no violation occurred. The Ethics Committee misapplied or misinterpreted the law, and if you follow its recommendation, you will chill the warm relationship we are to have with our constituents. If we say we cannot thank this particular group of people, then we can't thank anyone. We might as well tie our hands behind us and walk on egg shells every time we write a letter to anyone, for fear we could be violating the ethics statute. Enough about the merits of the case. I'd like to now turn to the second point, and that is the procedures used by the committee. the procedures which have the potential for the greatest mischief. At the outset, I want you all to know that I have no agenda here, and no intention of attacking anyone. I'm not here to put anyone on trial, or second guess anyone's motives, although certain aspects of this case, for example, the timing, seems suspicious. I also wish to bring to light, some very serious flaws I see in the procedures under the statute. If this statute is perfect, if it needs no fine tuning, then let's not worry about what I am about to tell you. By the way, I think it would be the first time in history that a legislature has ever produced a perfect statute. But if we're like other legislatures, maybe the statute wasn't perfect. Maybe it needs some work. This seems especially true since not all states have an Ethics Committee, and those that do haven't had them long. Ethics committees are fairly new and very powerful animals because of the premium we as legislators and our constituents place on ethics. No one, especially a legislator, wants to be on the wrong end of an ethics violation. To make this more forceful, I have one more exhibit I'd like to pass out. This is -- and I won't read it because it takes too much time, but this is an editorial from the Juneau Empire which strikes at the very core of our dilemma and anyone who hasn't read it I hope they will. Number 1452 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Let the record reflect that what is being passed out is in fact from the Juneau Empire. It's offered as Exhibit C, dated January 23, 1997. Number 1475 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: This article, Mr. Chairman, points out precisely why we must be so careful to make sure the process is fair. This is why the standard of proof is so high, clear and convincing evidence, higher than probably cause or preponderance of the evidence. Because the accusation of ethics violation carries with it so much public condemnation and outrage, we must be sure that accusations are not made lightly, that accusers are held to the strictest scrutiny and highest burden of proof, and that the committee grounds its findings in the most reliable evidence. Unfortunately, this was not the case here, nor is there any guarantee that this won't happen again. I suggest that we approach the statute the way a mechanic approaches a car that's running a little rough. The roughest part of the statute that we need to fix is the fact that the same person that accuses is also the jury and the judge. In other words, the committee not only charges a person, but then they also get to rule on the merits of their own charges. At that point, it's a foregone conclusion. Why would they charge me if I wasn't guilty? No where in our justice system do we have a similar procedure. In fact, a jury of our peers, separate from the judge, was important enough to our founding fathers to put in the Bill of Rights. How can we trust any procedure in which the same person who accuses also gets to have the final say about whether they are right. Imagine the inherent unfairness if one of two political parties had the power by statute to win every political argument. Imagine if a certain segment of our society had the final say in any lawsuit that it filed. The other problem, Mr. Chairman, is timing. Even the Anchorage Daily News has a moratorium of letters - moratorium on letters to the editor submitted on the eve of elections. In this way, the news attempts to avoid last minute smear campaigns which do no allow for rebuttal. Similarly here, where the Ethics Committee received the complaint in April, but took no action on it until the eve of the election, we have a problem. Like a mechanic, we need to fix the statute to make sure that neither party can take unfair political advantage. Let me show you what I mean. Here, Mr. Chairman, I have the actual papers that were shuffled back and forth between my office and the Ethics Committee during the months that led up to this and I have them sorted by the month. I want to show you. This is in the month of April when it was filed. There was nothing in May. There was no contact in June. This was the contact in the month of July. This is the contact in the month of August. This is the contact in the month of September. October, the month before the election. Mr. Chairman, in the 30 days before this election we had contacts every day. In the 30 days before this election, I never knocked on one door. I spent all my time, every day I was with my attorney or with these people or with -- going to court. If I had not had friends that supported me financially so that I could conduct a media campaign I would not be sitting here before you today and this would be a mute point. There would be no problem. This is what we did the 30 days before the election and this is what we did when we had the hearings after the election. Now as far as cooperation with the Select Committee, please allow me to humbly request that the Rules Committee go into executive session under Rule 22, subsection (b)(2) in the Uniform Rules. Number 1689 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Take a brief at ease. [The House Rules Committee took an at ease at 3:41 p.m. Chairman Kott called the meeting back to order at 3:42 p.m.] CHAIRMAN KOTT: Would you again repeat the rule. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Rule 22, subsection (b)-2. Number 1705 CHAIRMAN KOTT: For the record, Rule 22 dealing with open executive sessions - I'll just read it for the benefit of everyone here: "All meetings of a legislative body are open to legislators, whether or not they are members of the particular legislative body that is meeting and to the general public except as provided in (b) of this rule. A legislative body may call an executive session at which members of the general public may be excluded for the following reasons:". CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders has cited subsection (2) which goes on to say: "Discussion of subjects that tend to prejudice the reputation and character of a person". Number 1744 CHAIRMAN KOTT: We'll take a brief at ease until I get a reading on this. So we'll take an at east for about five minutes. [The House Rules Committee took an at ease at 3:43 p.m. Chairman Kott called the meeting back to order at 3:55 p.m.] CHAIRMAN KOTT: Tam, please come up to the table and state your name and affiliation for the record and I'll tell you exactly what the request is. Number 1763 TAMARA COOK, DIRECTOR, LEGISLATIVE LEGAL AND RESEARCH SERVICE, LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AGENCY: Mr. Chairman, for the record, I'm Tamara Cook and I work for the Legislative Affairs Agency, Legal Services Division. Number 1765 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you. We are addressing the ethics complaint against Representative Sanders and in accordance with Rule 22(b)(2) he has requested that we go into executive session. Can you provide some commentary on our authority and the requirement of the executive session? Number 1784 MS. COOK: Yeah, the Uniform Rules do give the committee to go into executive session, but only for the three purposes that are stated in the rule. Now the open meetings law has a little bit different requirements for executive session, but the Open Meetings Act, if I can remind members of the committee, through the Chair, does not apply to the legislature. So all you have basically is the rule before you. When the legislative - legislative committee does go into executive session, it cannot keep other members of the legislature out, but other than that it can request that any nonessential person or staff person, member of the public leave the room. If we are on teleconference, obviously you need to direct that the - the person in charge of the teleconference secure the other locations while you are in executive session. You can go into executive session for the purposes for discussing either of the three items that are listed in the rule, but there is no ability to take action in executive session. Generally what occurs is that a committee who goes into executive session will direct that the tape be turned off at that point and will request that the room be vacated except for the people that the committee specifically requests attend the executive session, and they can include necessary staff people. Is there anything else? Does that clarify the matter? Number 1855 CHAIRMAN KOTT: You bet. Are there any requirements to retain or keep notes during the executive session? Number 1862 MS. COOK: I have never heard of notes being kept during an executive session. As a matter of fact there is one court case out there. It does not involve a situation involving a legislature, it involved a hearing on a disciplinary action by I believe the University of Alaska. But one of the Executive Branch agencies in which the court pointed out that while going into a executive session in this case was probably proper, any notes generated during the executive session were still public records. And so I think -- or any other materials presented at, you know, on paper at an executive session might be public records. So far as I know, the legislature does not generally take any notes or create minutes or - or written history of what occurs during an executive session. Number 1901 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Can you comment briefly on the rules of confidentiality? Number 1908 MS. COOK: Anyone who is invited to participate in an executive session is supposed to maintain the confidentiality of what occurs during that session just as members of the legislature are. That would apply to the staff members. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, thank you. Representative Porter. REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER: No I don't have a question. If -- when -- anytime you're ready for a motion... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Elton Number 1920 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chair. Through the Chair, Tam I'm assuming that this rule applies also to the Legislative Ethics Committee - that they have the same latitudes that the Rules Committee has. Number 1930 MS. COOK: Oh, that's a very large assumption. Through the Chair, I can't possible speak for the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics. What we do know about that is that there is a provision in 24.60, the Ethics Act, which says that the legislature is obligated to abide by open meetings principles. And that duty is contained within the Ethics Act and so I presume a violation of the open meetings principles could be bought to the attention of the Ethics Committee and we can't, for the life of us, know how they would treat any factual situation. As you're well aware, there are no open meetings guidelines in effect. The Ethics Committee doesn't have any in effect. I presume they still have jurisdiction over an open meetings question. I cannot say that they would chose to presume that something that complies with the Uniform Rules meets the open meetings principles. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: If I could follow up. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Elton. Number 1971 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: I might be a little bit confused, but I guess I assumed that since the Legislative Ethics Committee is a committee of the legislature that the same rules would apply. I'm hearing you say they don't. MS. COOK: I think that's a fairly large assumption. The Ethics Committee is charged with - with - with considering complaints that may be filed regarding whether or not the legislature has violated something that is very vaguely called open meetings principles and we have no opinions that have been released about their interpretation about what those principles might consist of. The only thing that we do have that I know of are the proposed guidelines - the first proposed guidelines that they issued and their revisions. In looking at those in general, I can say that their guidelines did not necessarily comply with what the Uniform Rules set out. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. Number 2007 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I may not -- I may be misinterpreting your question, but are you asking, "Can the Ethics Committee, during their procedures, go in to executive session?" Number 2014 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Yeah. I guess what I was trying to establish is if the avenue available to the Rules Committee would have also have been available to the member when he appli -- when he sat before the Ethics Committee. Number 2025 MS. COOK: That's a different question. They have their own statute and they don't -- the rules do not apply to them at all. They have their own statute that is quite specific about the process that they undergo - what part of that process is to be done in a confidential basis and at what point the hearing becomes public hearing. They have to abide by their statute. It's entirely different. I'm sorry I misunderstood. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. Number 2040 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Perhaps be helpful to the point. During my time on the Ethics Committee, the Ethics Committee considered guidelines for open meetings and within that consideration, they recognized a provision for the standard reasons for executive session. Number 2059 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Clarify. Further questions for Ms. Cook? Thank you, Tam, for your assistance. We need a motion. Representative Porter. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: If I could have the book. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER (RALPH): Excuse me sir, are you going to -- I've made that request. Are you going to read that in to the record at all? (Indisc.). REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Excuse me. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I think I have the floor. Number 2000 CHAIRMAN KOTT: There was a request to, if we enter into executive session, to take... UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER (RALPH): The initial request was to delay while we try to contact a lawyer. CHAIRMAN KOTT: There has been two requests. One is to delay entering into an executive session and two, if we enter into executive session to take comprehensive notes. Those have been identified and we have addressed em. Representative Porter. 2099 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: To the two request, one, I think it's extremely clear that we have the authority to go into executive session. Two, as I think Ms. Cook just provided, if we were to take comprehensive notes they probably -- they may be public documents then and would violate the whole idea of going into a executive session. So I would recommend, one, we go into executive session immediately. Everybody is interested in getting this thing continue - continued through and disposed of. Two, that we not take notes for the obvious reason that we don't want that information to be public unless we deem that it was improperly done under the order. With that in mind then, I would move that the Rules Committee go into executive session pursuant to Rule 22(a)(2) to discuss subjects that might tend to prejudice the reputation or character of a person. Number 2141 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, there is a motion to enter into executive session. Is there objection? Number 2145 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY: Object. CHAIRMAN KOTT: There is objection. Do you want to speak to your objection Representative Vezey? REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: As I understand the rule we're (indisc.) we have the option of going in. I don't think it's mandatory. I don't interpret the rule that way and I think that the - the individual who reputation is being impugned who is the only person who would really have the right to demand it my opinion and it's a very humble opinion cause it's subject to a lot interpretation. I think (indisc.) we have the option of going into executive session, there is no question about that. I don't believe it's mandatory. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Elton. Number 2173 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chair, I mean I tend to agree with the previous speaker. I guess -- I just say I'm somewhat uncomfortable that we're not delaying a decision it it -- on whether to go in subject to other interest parties having access to their attorneys in the same way we have. So I'm uncomfortable. I don't think that (indisc.) objections are going to prevail here. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Are there further objections? Committee Secretary, please call the roll. Number 2200 CATHY WOOD, COMMITTEE SECRETARY, HOUSE RECORDS, ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE: Representative Vezey. REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: No. MS. WOOD: Representative Phillips. REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS: Yes. MS. WOOD: Representative Porter. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Yes. MS. WOOD: Representative Williams. REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS: Yes. MS. WOOD: Representative Elton. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: No. MS. WOOD: Representative Nicholia. REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA: No. MS. WOOD: Chairman Kott. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Yes. The motion passes. We will enter into executive session in order to determine whether Rule 22(b)(2) applies. If it does apply, we will continue into executive session. If it does not apply once we are in executive session make that determination and discussion that have taken place will be made public and we will continue to proceed on the record in an open manner. At this time I would ask that all cameras be turned off and everyone except for members of the legislature and staff, Mr. Dozier remain. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: May I ask that my attorney be allowed to remain in the room? CHAIRMAN KOTT: No. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Not -- it's okay. [The House Rules Committee went into executive session at 4:07 p.m. Chairman Kott called the meeting back to order at 4:52 p.m.] TAPE 97-2, SIDE B Number 001 CHAIRMAN KOTT: We are back out of executive session. During the lengthy discussion when we were in executive session. It was determined that Rule 22(b)(2) did not apply in the sense that there would be no additional information that was not already public. So in this light, we will proceed in an open fashion. Representative Sanders. Number 050 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I -- before I go on with my testimony, I would like to say that the reason I called for executive session is because the things that I am going to discuss, while they may be facts, they may not necessarily add up to what I believe they add up to and I did not want to put these people on trial in the newspaper the way I've been put on trial in the newspaper. I wanted to discuss these things and if they were nothing then nobody knew what was discussed. Number 113 CHAIRMAN KOTT: And I appreciate, as I think the rest of committee does, your motives. Number 127 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I -- leading in, I want to point out that these set of facts made an impression upon me that caused me not to cooperate with the Ethics Committee. Just as a great number of people in the 30s saw a set of facts coming up on them when the Nazis took over Germany and they chose not to cooperate and not to walk into the ovens and a lot of people didn't see those facts and a lot of people walked right on in. I felt that I saw facts that I had to turn and run, that I could not deal with this, that it was overwhelming and I will begin to line them out. To begin with, the Ethics Committee refused to provide us with discovery over and over and over. This may show you that it wasn't me who failed to cooperate. The committee absolutely wouldn't answer any discovery requests. My accusers wouldn't answer discovery requests. In addition, they had the burden of proof. I was not inclined to cooperate unless they were cooperating with me. I was not inclined to participate in a process where my accuser was guaranteed to win. It's like being asked by a lynch mob to cooperate by putting a noose around my neck. The Ethics Committee did not even call the complainant Mike Miller to the meeting. The chair of the Select Committee Ms. Margie MacNeille is married to another -- she is an attorney and is married to another attorney, Julian Mason. Mr. Mason and his firm have - had received under $300 from the state of Alaska in the three years before his wife became chair of the Select Committee. Since her appointment, the Department of Law of the state of Alaska has sent $685,212 to Mr. Mason's firm. Most of -- not all of this huge amount was by limited competition contract. Mr. Chairman, on a five day week, this is over $1,000 a day. If you're wife were receiving $1,000 from the Administration and I was on the opposite side of politics, do you think you could stand up under this and let me off of anything? Please let me hand out the checks so that everybody sees them. I'm not saying there is a crime here. I'm saying this scared me. I did not want to deal with someone who had this kind of obligation to the Administration. That's all I'm saying. Just using this in my defense. Under the direction of Ms. MacNeille, the Select Committee which received the complaint in April of 96 didn't get around to vigorously and publicly pursuing the allegation until September of 96. Now what sort of impression is that timing supposed to make on me as a candidate for election to the State House of Representatives? When we tried to take this to the judiciary to get some kind of relief, Superior Court Judge Sig Murphy indicated he suspected the motivations of the Select Committee in response to my motion to delay investigation until after the election. Ms. MacNeille asked for another judge. Recent Knowles appointee, Eric Sanders, the ink still wet on his appointment papers and from all the checks he had sent over the years to the Democrats bags off. He says they have no authority in this matter. I am sitting there -- say if I were up against the IRS he would have authority, if I were fighting the CIA he would have authority, but over the Ethics Committee he has no authority. My question is who on the face of the earth can help me fight this? I am overwhelmed. Number 504 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Excuse me Representative Sanders. For the record, would the committee members label this last handout that's titled "State Warrants" as Exhibit D. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Thank you Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Please proceed. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: When it became apparent that me and my attorney and the committee and their attorney were having problems agreeing on discovery and agreeing on times and things, Margie MacNeille took it upon herself to appoint a special master without our input. She appointed Mr. Michael White, who in the two or three weeks prior to his day of appointment and prior to the date he received a $10,000 contract paid for by Alaskan taxpayers, had contributed $4,000 to democratic candidates. Am I supposed to believe that this man is going to rule fairly in my situation? Everyone knows the I'm a conservative Republican. Everyone knows that this is politics. You can see it. I could see it. I beg your pardon. I'm not telling you what you can see. In 93, I led the opposition to Ms. MacNeille's appointment to the Legislative Ethics Committee. She has been after me ever since. Her incredible conflict of interest with her husband receiving contracts for over a half a million dollars from Bruce Botelho and now Tony Knowles does not give me much confidence in this committee or in my getting a fair hearing. Ms. MacNeille should be asked to resign from the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics and reprimanded for not resigning three years ago. If this system is going to work the members of the Select Committee must common sense, avoid such obvious conflicts and attempt to deal with complaints in such a manner that the 90 days before an election we don't become their special target of the year. Even if the Select Committee actually believed my March 4th letter violated AS 24.60.030, it is obvious that very little harm was done to the law. The committee's investigation and recommendations go way beyond anything called by a letter to 240 people sent from my office account at a cost of $72 for postage. I would not cooperate with the Select Committee because I believe the Select Committee's actions are corrupted by the conflict of interest and perennial revenge interests of its chair Margie MacNeille. I regret that you members of the Rules Committee must spend your time on this issue, but I am left with no recourse to appeal to your judgement and ask that you direct some action to eliminate the conflict of interest that exists within the Ethics Committee. Finally, since there is no violation on AS 24.60.030, none of the sanctions suggested by the Select Committee are appropriate. The bottom line, Mr. Chairman, is that we have an alleged violation filed by a former political opponent of mine, an unfair process and a biased committee who has made a crime out of our political differences. I must ask all of you to keep in mind that if this Ethics Committee can spend $24,000 to do this to me over a $72 technical violation, they can spend any amount of money to do anything they wish to any one of you when they choose to attack. Thank you very much for your time. I'll be happy to answer questions. That concludes my testimony. Anyone who would like a copy, they're welcome to it. Number 793 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you Representative Sanders. You made a remark during the last portion of your testimony regarding Margie MacNeille and went something to the effect that you thought or that she was after you. Is this something that is a perception of yours or has there been some communication between you and her that have affirmed that statement? Number 830 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Mr. Chairman, I have never met Margie MacNeille. I don't believe I'd know her if she were here in the room. In the beginning when we -- when the Ethics Committee was formed, there were five names -- well (indisc.) 270 people applied to be on the Ethics Committee. It was determined that they would put five people on it, five public members, two Republicans, two Democrats and something else. Didn't what it just wasn't a Democrat and wasn't a Republican. Of those 270 people, a judge picked out five names and sent those names to the Governor who referred them to the legislature for us to vote on. At that time, I had a -- I'd been here a long time. I had a large concern that new people were coming into the state and taking over things - taking over the government. People who didn't know what Alaska was, what it was about. So I went to the Division of Elections to get their voting records to see how long they'd been in Alaska. As I remember it, my questions were satisfied. Most of these people had been here, some 30 years, everybody more than 10. But I noticed something on their voting applications. What I noticed was that the two Democrats, on their history record, had been Democrats since college days or since they'd first signed up to vote. The two Republicans and the I believe it might have been a U, I can't remember for sure, had all changed parties in August before they were appointed in January - at the end of August. So I got their records and they had all three been Democrats and had changed parties for some unknown reason within a week in August. When this information was brought up in the Judiciary Committee, four of these people were dropped on the floor and Ms. MacNeille, being one of the life-long Democrats, they felt comfortable with and it was discussed in caucus and I said that I could not vote for her because she was part of a group that I felt was there to attack us as conservative Republicans. We went on the floor and it was 39 votes to 1. I voted against Margie MacNeille. I was told not by Margie MacNeille, but I was told by people that I won't mention that I would be sorry for that vote. I have said this on television before and I'll say it again, I am not sorry and if she drives me out of the political process, I still will not be sorry that I voted against her. This is the basis, then we come with the other problems I've had. The first one which I didn't address because it was laughable. There were four -- do we want to get into old ethics things or -- I don't mind. CHAIRMAN KOTT: If you feel that it would substantiate your position. Number 1041 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: There were four ethics violations brought against me. Three of them were dismissed. One of them was worked on to tune of over $12,000. They interviewed 37 people and no one said that I had done anything like that. They found one individual who was a fried of my aid who said he thought maybe he'd talked to my aid about some business cards. He thought maybe he'd talked to my aid about em. So they found me guilty of having my aid sell him business cards. I talked to him later. I said, "Maybe you did talk to him." I don't know. I said, "Was I there?" He said, "No, you weren't there." But I think I remember talking to Ed one time about it. On that evidence, Mr. Chairman, every individual at this table has pads in his office from two or three print shops here in town with their name at the bottom of that pad. If you have one of mine, that's an ethics violation. I'd had mine in here for ten years before they did this, but now it's against the law for me to have my pads here. These are the background things that lead me to suspect Margie MacNeille without having any numbers or figures or anything like that. Number 1142 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you for answering the question. Then if I can summarize then, she has not officially, in person, indicated that she was out to get you, but certainly from at least your perception the actions that have occurred over the past several months or couple of years would lead you to believe that there is something between ya. Number 1162 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Yes sir, that's correct. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you. Representative Porter. Number 1165 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Jerry, I've got a question. One that I think goes to the allegation itself or the complaint violation itself of what led to your motivation for not cooperating. To the - to the violation, am I correct that -- I assume I'm correct that Democrats couldn't vote in that straw poll, but could Us and Ns vote in that straw poll or just Republicans? Number 1192 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Well, I don't think they could. I -- you know I can't - I can't answer that question. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Perhaps Representative Vezey can. Number 1198 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: Mr. Chairman, the straw poll that Representative Sanders is referring to was put on by the Republican Party and a requirement to vote was that you had to registered as a Republican and they would register you at the polls if you so desired. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: That's the way I remember it. Number 1217 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: The previous primary that was a closed Republican primary Us and Ns were allowed to vote in the primary - state primary election, but in this case it was not okay. So then if you wanted to thank people for going to that particular election process, the only people you could have written to would be republicans. Number 1235 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Yes sir. I did not pick and choose. I sent that letter to everyone that I was aware of who attended and I said Republican because in my impression is that there was no one there but Republicans. Number 1253 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Same question if I may. As you're aware that the subcommittee on -- the House subcommittee of the Legislative Ethics that looks at violations is made up of five public members and two members of the House. Are you aware that they have to have a majority vote before a violation is determined? Number 1273 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: No sir because this was all done in executive session. I don't know how anybody voted or if anybody vote or.... I tried to find that out. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Well that probably explains that, alright thank you very much. Number 1290 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Just as a comment, I guess, regarding your first question, "Who is eligible to vote in that straw poll," is in fact true that you must be a registered Republican. However, it is also true that you could have been an N, a U, or a D or a I or a Green two minutes before you cast your vote. So you, in essence, really wouldn't know what their political persuasion might be other than the fact that they had to have an R next to their name as a republican to participate. But you could switch you -- if I understand it correct and I think Representative Vezey is the - is the resident expert on polls and primaries. But I think that's correct is that not - at least for this particular function Number 1335 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: The straw poll, Mr. Chairman, the straw poll that was conducted in February of 96, you could register here and then step over one seat and vote. If you were not currently registered Republican, you could register right there. The requirement was that to participate in the vote you had to be a registered Republican, but there was not length of time you had to be registered as a Republican (indisc.). UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nor did you have to stay. Number 1360 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Mr. Chairman, my understanding was... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: ...when they voted, they were Republicans. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Elton. Number 1369 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chair. I - I - I appreciate how difficult this must be for you. I mean it's difficult whether you do it in this forum or before the whole House or (indisc.) the Legislative Ethics Committee hearing. I mean I think one of the questions that we should ask is the one -- one of them was asked at the Legislative Ethics Committee hearing in that -- because that kind of gets to the first question that I think this committee needs, you know, and that is whether or not you did cause that letter to be written. I mean that was probably the threshold question that was asked at the Ethics Committee and so did you cause the letter to be written? Number 1405 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Representative Elton, yes I did cause that letter to be written. I composed it. I have never told a citizen on the face of the earth that I didn't write that letter. Number 1413 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chairman, I guess one of the things that I want to make clear because - and I may have misunderstood. When you were talking about the process of selecting the public members in the past, and I think it was before I was a member of this body, you talked about one of the concerns that you had that some of the people who were Rs had previously, several months previously, had been registered Ds. And I guess the question in my mind still remains. Were any of those short term Republicans named to the committee or or did other - were other Republicans subsequently named the the committee. Number 1449 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: No Representative. None of those were at that time. Others were put before us at later dates and were confirmed. One of those to -- leading me into something good. One of those who was also a D in August who was put up later is on the committee today. Number 1475 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chair, I think another question that came up in my mind and it came about when you were talking about the process and you were concerned about the timing, and I'm not talking about the amount of time that you had to respond, but the timing of the allegation, the notice of (indisc.) and the hearing. And this -- in several of the documents that you supplied earlier, you were concerned about the timing and I guess I've always felt that the - the worst, you know, timing that would have been worse for you would have been timing at which there had been a determination by the committee prior to the election. I guess in my mind, I've always thought that as far as timing goes, perhaps you were -- if there had been a political purpose to this that that political purpose would have been best served if the final determination had been made previous to the election. Number 1524 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Let me address that. The timing actually starts at the time there is a determination by the committee that there is reason to pursue this. Then they can begin to hand out, daily, items to the media about it. They can release these things one after another and up until Judge Sig Murphy made his -- gave his restraining order, the intent was to have the meeting before the election. At that point the committee threw up their hands and says, "Oh, well just have it after the election," and named a date. Before that we had to get this done so that we could get get our timing so that we could have this hearing immediately. It was important. In the interest of the state of Alaska, this hearing had to be held immediately if not sooner. Number 1574 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: One last question for -- Mr. Chairman I appreciate your allowing me to ask several -- Representative Sanders, where did you get the list of people who had participated? I mean how did that come into you possession? Number 1586 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Either from the Republican Party or from my district. I'm not sure which, but they - they both had it and we contacted em and one of em got it to me. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chair. Number 1600 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders, on the - on the date that the letter was mailed, had you done anything that would suggest that you had started campaigning for office. Number 1615 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Not to my knowledge. I know distinctly that I hadn't made up my mind at that time. I was still talking to my wife. It was probably not a month later, but it was two or three weeks later before I filed for office. Number 1634 CHAIRMAN KOTT: As a result of that letter being sent, did you receive any political or person gain? Number 1647 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Again, not to my knowledge. I - I had a warm fuzzy feeling toward those people for going out and participating and I would assume that being as I didn't insult them in the letter, they probably felt good toward me, but I don't know that that's true. Obviously one man didn't. Number 1666 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Well I would suggest that you did get some gain out of it. At least the personal satisfaction that... REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Absolutely, I'll agree with that. CHAIRMAN KOTT: ...communicated with constituents and patted them on the back I suspect. Further questions from committee? Number 1683 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: Yes, maybe I don't know why this feeling that you received, Representative Sanders, on the reason that you felt that the chairman of the committee was politically doing things in a political manner because of election you mention. Could you expand a little bit more on that - the $685,212. Number 1716 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I don't know if I can expand more. I can repeat it. I mean my feeling is that this lady, who is my accuser, my jury and my judge, is a registered Democrat. She is an attorney. Her husband is attorney and her husband is receiving, since the Administration changed, he is receiving over $1,000 a day from an Administration that, how can I say, I am the loyal opposition to. I am in opposition to them. It is not in their best interest for me to be sitting here today or for me to be sitting on that floor in the Chamber. And I just -- I believe that $1,000 a day will buy a lot of loyalty. And that's the things that I wanted to have executive session about because I'm not saying that these things are true. I am saying that was my feeling and still is, but that doesn't make them true. Number 1777 CHAIRMAN KOTT: One of the areas that -- sections of the law that have been addressed as far an alleged violation is regarding the mass mailings. How would you define "mass mailing?" What is your definition? One, two, five, fifty or district? Number 1794 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I guess I would define a mass mailing the way the post office does. I believe it's 200 letters. I believe anything over 200 is subject to the lower rate because it's a mass mailing. Anything below that you can't get the rate. I -- maybe I'd have to hang my hat there. I don't know that I have a logical reason for -- or a logical division point on a mass mailing other than that. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you. Representative Elton. Number 1817 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chair. You may not know the answer to this Representative Sanders, and if not I think the committee might when (indisc.) representatives are here, but you had mentioned that - that the person who filed the complaint did not - was not a witness at the hearing. I mean I -- in my mind I guess I assumed that you had - that you could request that that person be there and testify at the hearing and so it was a decision that was not just a unilateral decision, but you also had the decision of whether or not to compel that person to participate in the hearing. Number 1848 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Personally, all I can say is, again, it's my personal opinion, it would never cross my mind that you could take anyone into court and have their accuser not be there. I mean is that - is that done in court? I don't -- maybe it is. I don't do much of this and I'm not a lawyer, but it never crossed my mind that he wouldn't be here. I mean I -- in my mind I knew he was going to be there. Never thought about it. Number 1870 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Kind of a similar questions, Mr. Chair. And again I don't know the answer to this, but I'm assuming that if you ask for discovery (indisc.) this person that you could compel discovery that if a person says, "I don't want to do it," that's not enough, but that you have (indisc.--coughing) to compel that person to participate in the process. Number 1886 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I can't answer that question. I'm sure my attorney could. I'm not sure we want to hear from him, but I can't answer the question. I know he can. Number 1899 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Representative Sanders, I do have one follow up question on the person that was your accuser and didn't bother to come and make the accusation at the public hearing. And I want to have this very clear for the record because I think this is one area of the law that we really need to focus on. Your accuser was an opponent of you in a previous election or in that election. Is that correct? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: In the election of 1994 - my opponent. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Alright, I want that very clear on the record that this was brought by - by a political opponent. I want to restate I think this is one area of the law that we as the writers of this policy need to address. Number 1933 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I would point out that none of the Ethics Committee's accusations that have ever been brought against me were by anyone who hadn't been a previous opponent. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. Number 1950 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Jerry, this question probably relevant only to me, but if you want to know why I asked it I'll tell you later. You've been Alaska a long time. How long have you been here? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Oh 25 26 years. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: And from where did you come? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: When I came here or originally? Or I mean you ask me where I was born or where was I when I came to Alaska? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Where did you spend most of your adult life outside of Alaska? REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Well... REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: If it's a couple of places (indisc.) REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: No I -- the longest time I ever spent anywhere in my life, I was raised in East Saint Louis, Illinois. I lived there seven years from the time I was 8 until I was 15. Other than that, I've never been anywhere more than a couple of years until I came to Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Okay. Number 1995 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Does that conclude your questioning? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Yes sir. CHAIRMAN KOTT: I'm curious too. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Me too. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Sanders, one of the areas that is of concern is dealing with public funds and I know that there has been a lot of discussion among many members in the legislature regarding office allowance accounts and whether or not you are taking that office allowance account in a lump sum which I suppose could be construed then as personal income, but it's still state money that has come to you, or through the mechanism that the Legislative Affairs Agency has set up in the form of the accounting process and keeping those monies accountable in their records. Can you enlighten us as to which method you were using at the time? Number 2035 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: At the time the letter was sent, I was taking the accountable method. Now I guarantee you I am not. I still sit here before you not understanding the distinction and I would remind you, Mr. Chairman, and the committee that this is some kind of a technical violation that, like I say, I still don't understand and maybe I'm guilty of that. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Phillips. Number 2061 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Mr. Chairman, maybe for the public record you could explain and lay on the table the differences between the two accounting methods, the issue of taxation on the one accounting method, and the comment from the Ethics Committee that said if you had done it one way it was right and if you had done it the other way, it's wrong. And I would like a clarification on the record on that please. Number 2080 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Would you like me to explain it or... REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: uh-huh, uh-huh. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you, having taken it both ways, certainly we are authorized as legislators a $6,000 office allowance account and that $6,000 can be held by Legislative Affairs Agency at which point you purchase something and submit the receipt to LAA, at which point then they render payment and then they subtract that. On a monthly basis, you get a receipt or at least an account of what you've expended from your $6,000. There is no taxes paid on it so -- and the benefit of using that method is that you have the entire $6,000 and it goes a little further than if you take it the other way which is, again, you still get the $6,000 initially, but before you actually get your hands on it. It amounts to about $4,300 or $4,400 depending on your individual tax bracket. It comes in one lump sum which you only get -- during the first week or two of the legislative session. You can do with that money I suspect about anything you want to do with it even though the intent, I believe, is to provide a mechanism for you to purchase things for your office and to perhaps purchase postage and brochures for mailings. So that basically is the difference. You're paying taxes on one, it's a lot less, there is no account, nobody ask you what you spent it on, it's none of their business. It's like any other personal income. That's my understanding of the money and Representative Sanders. Number 2160 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Mr. Chairman, am I allowed to ask questions here? CHAIRMAN KOTT: You can ask, but I'm not sure of (indisc.) answer. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Under these conditions that you're talking about, if I choose to pay the taxes, take the money. If I spend the money on my office account, can I turn that in on my income tax and get the money back. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Don't answer that. CHAIRMAN KOTT: For fear of incriminating or getting myself in deep water with the IRS. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: That is (indisc.) IRS question. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Yah, that would be an individual IRS question, 1- 800-911IRS, plural. Further questions for Representative Sanders? Representative Elton. Number 2195 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chair, thanks. I have a feeling that we may not (indisc.). I understand, I think, the argument that your making - the impulse that you had on not cooperating with the Ethics Committee and - and I think you've laid out the reasons that you didn't want to cooperate with the Ethics Committee. I guess the question I have for you is - is that - is it's really difficult to say what I would have done if I had that mind set, but maybe you could explain to us why you didn't just say, "Given that, I'm gonna make the best case that I can." I'm going to say essentially what you said to this group about the purpose of the letter and why you thought the letter had a legislative purpose or a governmental purpose as you framed it. Why wouldn't you do that? I'm assuming tho -- they'll make the right decision knowing you had this avenue later, especially since there are other members of the Ethics Committee, other than the chair, that you had some doubts about. Number 2248 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Suppose you'd have to call it the rabbit syndrome. All I could do was hunker down and hope that these people don't eat me alive. And, like I say for the same reason that the people in Germany didn't cooperate because I knew -- in my mind I knew that there was nothing that I could do that these people were going to convict me and they were - they were - they had tried to do it before the election. Beings they couldn't do it for the election, they were mad at me because they couldn't do it before the election and they were going to be even more vindictive toward me after the election. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Further questions for the witness? Number 2287 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: We will be able -- if we do have another question, we will be able to get Representative Sanders back here? Number 2297 CHAIRMAN KOTT: He will be available if another issue or another question comes up at a later time. I'm sure he'll make himself available and provide a timely response to the question. I just have one last question regarding the process. We set up this Ethics Committee a few years back and I think, for the most part with few exceptions, they've done an exceptional job and there is probably some ambiguities in the law that needs to be clarified. I think that's one of the issues that this committee may address at some point in time. One of the things we did was to establish that there would be two members of the legislature to perhaps provide a mechanism or a forum so that the public members would understand the issues that have come before that committee. In your understanding do know if both of the legislative members were in fact in attendance and provided that forum and provided the dialogue that would have occurred. Number 2333 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: I did not attend the meet -- I attended the meeting teleconfer - by teleconference. It's my understanding that one of the legislators had never participated in - in anything having to do with my case. I don't know that. I can't state that as fact, but that's my understanding. Number 2363 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you. Further questions? Hearing none, then we will go into recess until tomorrow evening at 6:00 p.m. at which point we will hear from the members from the Ethics Committee. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you committee members. [The House Rules Committee meeting was recessed at 5:36 p.m.]
Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
---|